Is it time to reorganize?

[louross]

Overall, I disagree.
However, for a few specifics, I see what I would call contradictions. You say we should operate as an airline; we should bid routes based on availability- not senority.
So it would appear to me that you only want to operate as an airlines to a certain extent, as defined by your own parameters. Airline pilots bid routes, and also schedules, based on senority, not availability. You mention EK Gann flying cargo, including people, to and from anywhere they could find them, meaning, there really are no routes.
The routes and divisions are there. There to be used as a structure for anyone who wants the structure. I have no problems with that, but it is limiting. I've got all the goodies you can add-on to MSFS to make it "interesting". But, bottom line, it does get quite boring. Limit the availability, and the boredom is overhelming. Maybe you never actually flew before. Maybe you have a few GA hours. Not knocking that- you want to fly, you do what you can. But let's face it, an SEL in an SEL. Sure this one flies a bit faster than that one and this one has retractable gear, but when it comes down to it a Comanche 250 and a C150 and a Stearman are essentially the sane thing, unless you are a 60 hour pilot. I flew for the airlines. Sorry, but FS is a very limited simulator, game, or whatever you want to call it. Let people fly FS the way they want- it's called "have fun". You want airline flying only. You only play FS when you are "in the mood" and have timne. It's not a JOB. Want restrictions? You can get them- go to United or American Virtual. I think they even require check-rides. BGA was created by pilots, for pilots. It was created for fun.
Just my opinion. Basically.
I don't know.
You know.
lr.

[Andrew Godden]

First, let me say, I respect both opinions.

I have often thought about the number of inactive pilots on the Roster, however, we have never deleted anyone. In my experience, I have found some people drift away from flight simming for various real world and virtual world reasons, with some returning, while others are never to be seen again. The point here is, it is for their reasons, whatever they may be.

I am a self confessed and obessed flight sim addict. I will do anything to fly. I create my own adventures in this virtual world. Some are built around established (VA or real world) routes, others based on historical real world airline routes, and others on famous aviation achievements and historical flights. I have been involved at different levels in a range of other VAs with different operational approaches and I now fly with Bluegrass Airlines and DC-3 Airways because they both offer the total flexibility I need to suite my life and type of flying.

My next point is simply about the reality of the effort required to maintain a VA and a more complex flying structure.

I became involved with Bluegrass Airlines about seven years ago, flying my first GAAR. From there, I started flying the Australian Division routes and, for my sins, have been the Australian Division Director since 2008, including organising and running the GAAR and organising and running the GUKAR (in conjunction with Mutley's Hangar) since 2011. In June 2011 I was elevated to the dizzy heights of management which means I now maintain the Pilot Roster, process the odd new application, respond to emails, and maintain the web site, (as well as being the chief cook, dixie basher, bottle washer and toilet cleaner). For many years, Bill Von Sennet did this on his own and now Allan Lowson and I share the load with Allan producing the Monthly Feature and Hop List and me translating it all into the web pages. Sometimes, because of real world interference with this self confessed obsession of mine, the monthly updates to the web site don't happen as they should.

Having been involved at various levels in other VAs, I am more than aware of the amount of manpower and manhours required to maintain a VA, particularly if you have a more complex monthly flying roster. Currently, this is a luxury Bluegrass Airlines simply doesn't have, nor the technical expertise to build the bidding and roster systems, let alone alter the current PIREP database to support it. As an example, the administration of the GAAR is a complete manual process. With a typical 100 particpants, across 10 Flight Legs with email PIREPs, you can start to see what is required and that doesn't include amendments and other general administration. Translate this to a monthly manual bidding and allocation process along with other administration and you can quickly start to measure the effort required in days.

Now, if I can only work out how to make money out of this venture.

Just my 'two bob's worth'.

Cheers
Andrew

[louross]

Well, thank you- both to Scott and Andrew- I really appreciate the reponse that you both have. Scott you are correct in that there is a general lack of comraderie, or it is rather sporadic. Andrew, your explanation is very well taken- I understand a lot more about the "problems" in running a VA.
I've seen a number of VA's shut down, for whatever reason. This VA has an inherent problem, common to many that have gone by the wayside. It was originally set up for flying before the 1960's or maybe before the 1950's. In actuality, not that many people actually want to fly in that manner. Most of the people using FS want the newest a/c. So "we" are in a very limited market. Add to that, most of the other VA's require some form of automatic PIREPS, which a number of users cannot use, like me. I cannot fly on line due to my location- regardless of what anyone may have heard, Mexico is in fact a third world country, and will, be for the foreseable (sp) future.
BGA has some advantages- structured routes for those who want/need the structure or for those who want it sporadically, based around prop a/c, flexibility to fly more modern equipment, flexibility to fly non-BGA routes, manual PIREPS, and a group of people who seem to me to be, what?, how do I say this?, just good people.
Personally, I'm here for two main reasons- flexibility, and I've found some very good people here.
lou.

[steveg]

OK..then maybe we are a flying club-line, or maybe a virtual air-club. We have the best of of both worlds here. I sure enjoy this airline club.

Thanks much to our leaders and managers. And all those who participate.

[louross]

I'll drink to that!

[Bob BGAN005]

Hi everyone,
I think I will make some comments here. As a pilot that has been here from the time when Ray Yarnell was the head of things and then had Art Nichols (Great Guy), I guess I am one of the senior pilots. Things seem to ebb and flow here. Sometimes things are active and then some sometimes not.
I am guilty of things myself. I did not turn in time for about 1 1/2 years but keep flying and keep logs. This month I became active again and turned in 1000+ hrs.
At one time I had flown all the BGA normal flights. I think that was back in the FS2000 - FS2002 days. I have flown a lot of the features also and sometimes someone will say they are trying something and a few of us will join in on a flight together. One lately was the Boeing 314 Pan Am 1941 round the world flight. That was fun.
I was wondering if maybe a mass email questionnaire to the inactive members might be a help. This might give us some answers on why they are inactive.
No Andrew, I do not know how to mass email!
Also maybe more advancements, awards, certificates would be in order. DCA airlines does this.
Just some thoughts,

Keep flying!!

Bob
BGAN005

[Bob BGAN005]

I forgot to make one comment to Scott. DCA allows you to fly the DC-4 also.

Bob

[Allen Peterson]

Scott,
I joined the forum several years ago. I'm not a pilot and I was new to FS, so I was very interested and excited about Tom Goodrick's many posts on all the phases of fs2004, from flying the different types of planes to tweaking the .cfg and .air files, and to making and modifying panels. Probably about half of my flying time (never posted) is testing planes and panels.
Then I started flying the GAARs and GUKARS and then the DC Airways WRs and look forward to them every year. I like the GAARS because I get a target time and a route and it's up to me to get there.
I also like the WRs because I get a flight plan with procedures to follow, which is a good learning experience.

Then I joined Blue Grass mostly as a way to post my flight times. I never really flew the airline routes.
I like it when someone in the group has a tour or flight to try.
Ed's Two Pot Tour of Hawaii was fun along with Tom's Grand Canyon flight, and many others
So why are there fewer active members? Now that Tom is not as active I see that several folks that used to post on Tom's topics are no longer active. Some folks have moved on to Xplane. I wonder if the lack of support by Microsoft or the newer operating systems and smart phones are having an effect.
So I agree with Bob, maybe some way to contact the inactive members to find out why they are not active would help. But I don't know how to do that either.
I suspect that some inactive members still read the forum just to keep in touch. Maybe some of them will sign on and give their comments.
Allen

[Allan_Lowson]

As Andrew says we are to an extent limited by the resource requirements of any more detailed operational structure. I don't know whether any automated system for pireps would need to pre-define the available routes. Anyway we do need to tailor our systems to what we can maintain, give or take real world glitches.

Lou mentioned that the piston era basis for the VA is also an inherently limiting factor, which we have long been aware of. In my early days with Bluegrass I enjoyed swapping emails with Bill Odell who had flown Beavers, Dc-3s, DHC-4s and Martin 4-0-4s between the '40s and '60s. He set up many of the routes in the Northern and Alaska/Bush Divisions - with no small number based on his personal experience.

Bill is no longer with us and the number of people interested in flying older aircraft will probably be increasingly a niche interest as those who saw or travelled on the classic piston liners will naturally diminish. There will always be some interested in history from before their own era, but the number keen on more modern transport will become ever more prevalent.

As DCA seem to be able to maintain their niche with just two types of piston airliner, there is obviously scope for our era if we can keep interest going.

We had a discussion a while back about the level of activity in Bluegrass. A look back over the years actually shows that we are not far off previous levels of active pilots and monthly hours. On the latter, Bob caused me to do a double take on the number of hours for November when I was totalling them up - good to have you back and I'm impressed by your record keeping. Anyway my reading of the perception of reduced activity was that it actually reflected a reduction in activity on the forum. So more discussions like this would be a starter for ten in getting more interaction going!

There have been a few times when we have thought about the continuing listing of inactive pilots. Usually about the time I start thinking we should de-list some, one pops back up and re-activates. Maybe we could drop the 30 odd who registered but have never logged any time for over two years.

Personally if I feel the need to blast around in a jet I can scratch that itch under the cover of Dan's Greenbrier VA, or just remember we had a jet division at one time. One of those slow burning new fangled developments that may catch on in time.

The idea of having special events and certificates etc. could well be worth pursuing, I know it is an idea Dan uses. All suggestions will be gratefully received.

I have been lucky enough to meet a number of our members, either when they have been in the UK or when I have been in the US and can confirm what a great bunch they are.

We will never be the biggest VA, but I hope we can have the most fun.

Any and all proposals to help with that aim will always be gratefully received.

[Bob BGAN005]

As one who can speak from experience due to my 1 1/2 year lack of logging time on line, I can tell you how DCA does it. At the 6th month of inactivity I got an email which said my account would no longer be displayed in the PIREPs. If I logged in and added a PIREP I would automatically be changed to active.
At one year I received an email which stated my account was removed and could only be reinstated by reapplying using my old number. I am in process of doing that now. Andrew and Allen, if you want to see the emails, I can forward them to you. They could be used as a pattern and change the time frame etc. Also when these are sent out, the question of why the inactivity could be asked.
Allen, I have a log book page I made on a spreadsheet to keep track of my flying. Also I save all my flights as I fly them especially the taxi start time and the park time in Zulu. I can go back and look at those if I need to.
I am like Allen Peterson, I like BGA because it gives me a place to log my time. I like the "Big Iron" but fly about everything including some jets just to see if I can. I like being able to log all in BGA.
I have 3 FS setups on my computer. I have Golden Wings, Silver Wings and FSX. At times I may have 4 to 6 flights going at once. When I get up in the morning I choose the one I want to fly during the day when I have time to fly. That is why I try to keep good records.
I also like to fly new or redone aircraft and scenery, test flying I guess. There is a lot of that going on at Cal Classic lately. Check it out.

OK lets hear other ideas!

Thanks,

Bob
BGAN005

PS: Scott Anderson got me thinking, maybe I should dig out the T-50 and do some Radio Range flying in it. Sounds like a good idea to me! ;D

[Andrew Godden]

An interesting side note. The GAAR is the single, continuous, longest running FS event I am aware of. As a VA, we are also one of the longest continuously running.

Cheers
Andrew

[davidrevans]

The freedom of being to choice where you wish to go and what to fly is the strong point of Blue Grass , I have been in the bush pilot Alaska division from the start and had a spell do to heart surgery I missed a few months of flying ,but was re activated with no problems. I log my two required Alaska flights ,then if I want I go to an Alaska air force base an fire up a Shooting Star or Dog Saber and go Russian Bear hunting , load up a Cargo load of fish and head to Seattle or can do a charter hop from Livingston county Michigan to Chicago Midway.. it is the versatility,, I agree the list of in active pilots is long and due to the age of most the active pilots will become longer maybe like DC-3 Airways we need a silent wings area to honor members who have passed on , then erase those who have not logged flights in the last 6 months. Scott wait till you fly your first GAAR ,see the pilots who fly from all parts of the world ,you will be proud to fly for Blue Grass ,and represent the your division , plus it is just fun.

[davidrevans]

Scott , you are just what was needed , it has got members thinking about changes, an what is good and sitting still with Blue Grass.

[louross]

Here, here. I'll drink to that!
lr.

[Ed Burke]

And I'll have one with you guys!

A good topic Scott, well done, you have made some of us do some navel gazing.

BGA is great as far as my needs are concerned. I can fly anywhere, any time, in anything, book the flight times and when the fancy takes me I can swap info, ideas and lies with a band of intelligent people who share the same interests.

I flew with an Aussie VA which was doing things as near to the book as was possible and, while there was some fascination in trying to fly to a timetable, it eventually became boring and I can hear a lot of professional long haul airline pilots muttering....Yea!

We are devoid of restrictive regulations, a club pure and simple, existing for a group having common interests. I guess a lot of the low time absentees have found our setup too slack to give them whatever challenges they are seeking while many of the more experienced truants wander by and say hello again. There are a great variety of reasons why a member may not be able to fly for an extended period and allowing for those reasons is an indicator that we should not be cleaning up the roster just to be tidy.

Over a number of years I too have been concerned about the lack of activity, especially on the forum after the GAAR is finished. It is as though most everybody has put their feet up and retired for the next ten months or so. But hours are still being flown and it seems that not all pilots want to brag to the rest about their adventures. So be it.

Having said that I agree that we must have attractions such as the rallies and monthly flights. Sadly we no longer have The Toughman Challenge as a regular feature although the existing 21 compilations are still listed on the 'Home' page under 'Special Flights'. Anyway, with a little Imagination we can invent our own challenges and test our skills, and then comes the great thing about BGA, we can then introduce them to other members to try their luck and share yet more yarns over a beer or two.
Ed