budsbud
Member
Cross winds of life
Posts: 211
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Post by budsbud on Jan 3, 2009 17:05:01 GMT -5
By the previous posts above, I don’t think that anyone will have to worry much about liquid refreshments as Captain Zlogg seems to have considered all the finer aspects . As I am going this bout solo with only minimum fuel loads I think that I have space/ weight for a full load of Cap Zlogg’s wonderful brew. Well at least enough for me but I will share. Forget the Fosters
Bud GAAR077
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Smithy
Member
afl.com.au
Posts: 69
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Post by Smithy on Jan 4, 2009 21:46:34 GMT -5
I have a query about the 'Test Flight Average Speed (kts) As an example I will use my test average speed which says 197.65kts when in actual fact I would say it was more like around the 180kts when flown. Is this a ground speed versus indicated speed thing. As I wasn't sure I did a test run of the first leg at 180kts and came pretty close to the target time for it. Didnt fly at 197kts yet. So what's the theory I wonder...? cheers
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Post by pterodactyl (George) on Jan 5, 2009 0:06:47 GMT -5
Smithy I think you have to add in the time it takes to climb to cruise altitude once you exceed 35kts on the timer if you are using it, as well as the time to descend and drop your airspeed back below 35kts. This could make up the difference between the possible posted flight speed and your test flight speed.
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Post by sentinel on Jan 5, 2009 0:52:56 GMT -5
I'll take a punt on the Phillipines Ed Ed you are correct...speaking of some good beer if anyone is interested in some ice cold San Miguel let me know and I will have some shipped down to Darwin for ya. Later, Ed Bleck
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Post by Andrew Godden on Jan 5, 2009 1:21:54 GMT -5
I have a query about the 'Test Flight Average Speed (kts) As an example I will use my test average speed which says 197.65kts when in actual fact I would say it was more like around the 180kts when flown. Is this a ground speed versus indicated speed thing. As I wasn't sure I did a test run of the first leg at 180kts and came pretty close to the target time for it. Didnt fly at 197kts yet. So what's the theory I wonder...? cheers Smithy, You are correct in assuming the difference is indicated air speed (IAS) versus ground speed (GS). In technical terms, unless an aircraft is at a sufficient sea level under International Standard Atmosphere conditions (15°C, 1013 hPa, 0% humidity) and no wind, the IAS bears little relation to how fast an aircraft is moving in reference to the ground. For navigation, it is necessary to convert IAS to GS using several steps: - correct IAS to calibrated airspeed (CAS) using an aircraft-specific correction table; - convert CAS to equivalent airspeed (EAS) by allowing for compressibility effects (not necessary at slow speed or low altitude); - convert EAS to true airspeed (TAS) by allowing for differences in density altitude; and - convert TAS to ground speed (GS) by allowing for the effect of wind. In the post on "Cruise Altitude and ATC" I posted a response, part of which I think also answers your question, as follows. "...As your timing is based on overflying the Runway at YPKU and YARG, it obviously only provides an accurate calculation of cruise speed (which, of course, will vary at different altitudes) and without any affect from weather. Your Target Time for each Flight Leg is based on this cruise speed and Leg distance and factors in components, based on an average, for the following phases of flight: - take-off; - climb: speed and distance; and - circuit: speed and distance. For the event, descent is considered to occur at cruise speed, and the circuit is based on a combined crosswind, downwind, base and approach of 12 nm, with a 5 nm approach. Variables for weather and ATC are not included in the Target Time...". The cruise speed derived from the Test Flight is Ground Speed. The altitude was specified as 4500', so as to provide a reference (higher will increase GS, lower will decrease GS) for flight planning based on the provided weather reports (on the "GAAR Downloads" page). Obviously, none of us have the detailed information required to perform the above conversion steps, so it's back to good old Aussie "thumb in the air, that's about right and she'll get us there" stuff. Everything this great country is famous for. My most humble apologies for such a long response. Hopefully, this answers your question rather than raising more.
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Post by rattler1 on Jan 5, 2009 17:36:15 GMT -5
Andrew. Firstly, apologies if this is treading on any toes. Until I got involved here, Timor was pretty low on my consciousness radar. Now I'm learning more about it, I see that they are in need of real humanitarian help. Might I suggest to competitors that they could pay a real-world "landing fee" at Dili in the shape of a small donation to the charity of their choice? To get the ball rolling, here is a link to a local organisation that is doing a lot of work. www.timoraid.org/index.htmFeel free to shoot me down and remove this post if you think it inappropriate.
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Post by Allan_Lowson on Jan 5, 2009 18:07:11 GMT -5
Sounds like an excellent and practical idea to me.
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Post by Andrew Godden on Jan 5, 2009 18:23:21 GMT -5
Andrew. Firstly, apologies if this is treading on any toes. Until I got involved here, Timor was pretty low on my consciousness radar. Now I'm learning more about it, I see that they are in need of real humanitarian help. Might I suggest to competitors that they could pay a real-world "landing fee" at Dili in the shape of a small donation to the charity of their choice? To get the ball rolling, here is a link to a local organisation that is doing a lot of work. www.timoraid.org/index.htmFeel free to shoot me down and remove this post if you think it inappropriate. Rattler1, Your post is considered more than appropriate. In past GAAR events, the Royal Flying Doctor Service (RFDS) has been highlighted if anyone wished to donate to a worthwhile cause. The RFDS provides medical services in these same remote areas the GAAR is conducted in and it's about the only place you can still get a doctor to make a 'house call' these days in Australia. As for East Timor, admittedly, whilst my planning for the event scenario was partially fact based, it was not intentional in highlighting the real humanitarian situation there. In a previous life, (not my current job) I was involved in the operational equipment planning for the original Australian led INTERFET (International Force for East Timor) UN deployment in Sep 99. Thanks for the link.
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Post by rattler1 on Jan 8, 2009 16:21:29 GMT -5
Well Andrew, I guess we're approaching put-up-or-shut-up time regarding payload to Dili. The faithful old Valetta is proving to be an even better load-lugger than I had expected. I'm actually coming against a landing weight restriction, but can still offer 9070lb or, if you prefer, 4120kg. I'm also going to be brave and tell you where I will need fuel. Darwin,obviously and because of the freight, both Oenpelli and Garden Point. From there I'll hope to only pick up at major points, leaving the harder-to-position fuel for those without the Valetta's legs. The plot is Dili, Derby, Carnarvon and Kalgoorlie, although whether I can manage 7 sectors without refuelling only time will tell.
So that's me sort of committed, and ready to eat my words when it all goes wrong! ;D
Peter
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Post by Andrew Godden on Jan 8, 2009 17:10:31 GMT -5
Well Andrew, I guess we're approaching put-up-or-shut-up time regarding payload to Dili. The faithful old Valetta is proving to be an even better load-lugger than I had expected. I'm actually coming against a landing weight restriction, but can still offer 9070lb or, if you prefer, 4120kg. I'm also going to be brave and tell you where I will need fuel. Darwin,obviously and because of the freight, both Oenpelli and Garden Point. From there I'll hope to only pick up at major points, leaving the harder-to-position fuel for those without the Valetta's legs. The plot is Dili, Derby, Carnarvon and Kalgoorlie, although whether I can manage 7 sectors without refuelling only time will tell. So that's me sort of committed, and ready to eat my words when it all goes wrong! ;D Peter Peter, Excellent, this is looking good. I hope for your sake, the 'Valetta' can handle the YTTI and YGIB runway lengths of 3235' and 3497' respectively, with the fuel load.
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Post by rattler1 on Jan 8, 2009 18:51:32 GMT -5
Ah, but by then I won't have any freight load. The biggest obstacle is Garden Point, where I'll be close to maximum takeoff weight. However, I've practised on that length of runway, and the old beast copes, even if an engine quits just at rotate. The accelerate/stop is "interesting" though, probably involving a gentle ground loop at the end. You can't just stamp on the brakes in these old taildraggers like you can in a modern aircraft.
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Post by Capt Zlogg on Jan 9, 2009 8:10:43 GMT -5
By the previous posts above, I don’t think that anyone will have to worry much about liquid refreshments as Captain Zlogg seems to have considered all the finer aspects . As I am going this bout solo with only minimum fuel loads I think that I have space/ weight for a full load of Cap Zlogg’s wonderful brew. Well at least enough for me but I will share. Forget the Fosters Bud GAAR077 Comrade Budweiser, do not despair, we shall carry a rich selection of fine delicatessen from the Motherland, available on our glorious arrival. Proppy will have ample supply of his latest spirits, freshly retrieved from the most recent model mini brewery designed by Babuschka and built by cousin Viktor. Propellorovsky also designed a container (bladder type, 4 cells) to be installed under your seat, completely with adjustable mouthpiece (1 minute drip intervals upto 1 litre/sec) to hold in-flight refreshments of your choice. cheers Capt Zlogg GAAR 013 vp Crunch div CEO KGB Air Droppers (cows & elephants div) Chief Test Driver Onkel Theo's socialist bicycle works # 3107 off-line & out of town (for the weekend)
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Post by outback on Jan 14, 2009 7:45:15 GMT -5
At the risk of being banned for life I would like to see the GAAR present a bit more of a challenge. This of course would be something to think about for next year. Essentially the format could stay the same with the test flight. The flights to be conducted under VFR rules, with a pattern landing etc. The change I would like to see is that the calculated flight time be given only for the first 2-3 flights. These flights should give you a good idea on how to fly your aircraft to meet these times. The rest of the flights (if flown the same way) should come close to the expected time. That of course is the challenge. As it is now you can fly the flight a number of times until you get the time spot on or very close. This is just a thought and I suggest would make the GAAR more of a challenge. Regards
Barry GAAR-042
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Post by Andrew Godden on Jan 14, 2009 9:07:11 GMT -5
At the risk of being banned for life I would like to see the GAAR present a bit more of a challenge. This of course would be something to think about for next year. Essentially the format could stay the same with the test flight. The flights to be conducted under VFR rules, with a pattern landing etc. The change I would like to see is that the calculated flight time be given only for the first 2-3 flights. These flights should give you a good idea on how to fly your aircraft to meet these times. The rest of the flights (if flown the same way) should come close to the expected time. That of course is the challenge. As it is now you can fly the flight a number of times until you get the time spot on or very close. This is just a thought and I suggest would make the GAAR more of a challenge. Regards Barry GAAR-042 Barry, Banning, ex-communicating and other rude behaviour is something we don't do at Bluegrass Airlines. This type of undignified act is left to those who need to do it in the virtual world in order to satisfy shortcomings in their real life. We accept that everyone is entitled to express an opinion. Now, you raise a point which has been much debated over the years. For my opinion, by definition, a "rally" is an event in which you compete to specified rules as to speed, time, and route, which is why target times are published. In the GAAR, the choice is up to the individual as to how you fly it. For example, I take it seriously, fly the Legs in sequence and each Leg only once. Whatever time I record, that is it, and hence my challenge. There have been others who have "withdrawn" if they crashed. For others the challenge is achieving time perfection or as close to as possible. The beauty about the GAAR is it's completely up to the individual and their own sense of challenge, discipline and honesty. You are only competing against yourself and no-one else. This year's GAAR has a significant weather variable on some Legs, which gets progressively worse over the Flight Legs. Unless you are exceptionally skilled at flight planning and E6B calculations, performance on other Legs may not provide a good enough indication as to "...how to fly your aircraft to meet these times..." as you put it. To take your view, maybe we could offer the option to the individual in future events as to whether the target time is published or not.
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Dave Evans bgak015
Member
"there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are few old and bold pilots"
Posts: 57
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Post by Dave Evans bgak015 on Jan 14, 2009 16:32:04 GMT -5
I like the target time concept,maybe it would be simpler to offer a VFR weather pack and an IFR weather pack the contestant could pick either or both with 10 minutes added to the IFR target time for the pattern.
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