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Post by jerryluke on Dec 9, 2008 21:44:03 GMT -5
I thought I was fairly proficient in the Cessna 208B Turboprop, but I cannot make a successful landing at Courchevel. I'll keep practicing. Here is a pilot who does it for real in the Beach Baron: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNFNFZq2BFYJerry
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Post by Tom Goodrick on Dec 10, 2008 10:37:10 GMT -5
Just a little practice should get you in there in the C208B. I did it several years ago in the Beech 350. I'll have to try it again in the some turboprop airliners. I don't have enough time in those airplanes anyway.
Remember, if you have a computer that lets you run with generic scenery cranked up to the max, that will put in too many trees at the ends of some of these runways. There were just three trees off the end of the runway when I did it. I came in just over them using beta thrust in the 350.
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Post by jerryluke on Dec 10, 2008 11:28:13 GMT -5
I been trying it with beta thrust but the descent is so steep, i still pick up too much speed. I tried flaps, no flaps, beta, no beta, even turned off weather so no wind. What a challenge! No luck yet.
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Post by Tom Goodrick on Dec 10, 2008 22:27:59 GMT -5
I returned to Courchevel today. It was about three years ago we tried flying into and out of it. For those readers unfamiliar with it, we are talking about the ski airport in the French Alps code LFLJ. It's about 67 nm from Lyon (LFLL). The runway at Courchevel is only 1,756 ft long. It is perched on the side of a mountain at an elevation of 6420 ft msl. Regardless of wind, you land into the mountain and takeoff away from it. The meek should stay away. It is in fact a scheduled stop for an airline servicing the ski resorts in the French Alps. The route is normally flown by pilots with special training in a Dash 7 - a four engine turbocharged Dehaviland know for an ability to make steep beta approaches. (Beta means reverse thrust in the air while flying final approach. Turboprops can do that though I don't know what kind of propeller life it gives.
I popped into Courchevel and did a takeoff where I veered off quickly to the left to miss the 90 ft trees just beyond the end of the runway (courtesy of Autgen>0). I came back in and used the full 40% reverse thrust on the B350 to make a survivable landing but the numbers were 94.46 KIAS and -1038 fpm which almost collapsed the gear and caused a complete loss of directional control during the slide-out. But it stayed on the runway and taxied into the apron near the hangars like nothing happened. The I tried a C208B and landed with 85.05 KIAS and -366 fpm but slide off the runway and started up the mountain slope. Next I laned at 85.05 KIAS and -695 fpm stopping only 40 ft past the end of the runway. Next I flew the Baron 58P (the elevation is a little high for a non-turbocharged Baron). It landing was at 83.79 KIAS and -392 fpm with only a 10 ft over run.
The only thing that makes this a challenge is the trees placed around the airport by Autogen. I usualyl fly with Autogen at 40%. That put a fair density of trees around the area but it was a little sparse to be called a forest. At Autogen of 60% and above you get a forest. At Autgen=0 there are no trees and landings and takeoffs are "cake walks." At Autogen=20% the most troubling cluster of 90-ft pines is waiting just about 50 yards past the end of the runway. But you could easily dodge them by angling to the side. I remembered we didn't dodge them three years ago so I decided to try going directly over them on takeoff as well as on landings in the B350.
It worked! (If I can find a suitable host for some photos I'll post a bunch.) I turned on "Winter Wonderland" weather, put the 350 exactly at the end of the runway, revved the engines to 99% torque before releasing the brakes and flew right at the trees. At 88 KIAS with one notch of flaps I rotated and lifted off. I climbed out at 100 KIAS directly over the trees. It looked like a rocket launch. Coming in I slowed on level approach about 2000 ft above the runway, lowered gear and full flaps and slowed down maintaining about 100 KIAS before dropping the nose when "way too close" to the runway and going into reverse thrust. The key is to maintain 100 KIAS all the way to flair with 40% reverse thrust, aiming at the close end of the runway. Make a smooth flare starting about 200 feet above the surface. (You have a descent rate of about 3500 fpm so timing is tight.) I touched down about halfway down the runway leaving thrust in reverse at the full 40% untill stopped. I have a habit of cutting the thrust as the wheels touch but you don't want to do this when you already have reverse thrust working for you. I tried some landings at speeds slightly below 100 KIAS and crashed badly during the flare as the reverse thrust dragged me back into a stall.
It's a great challenge. The Winter Wonderland weather is great. Tomorrow I'll try some round trips from/to Lyon.
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Post by jerryluke on Dec 11, 2008 11:57:45 GMT -5
Maybe I'm landing the wrong way on the runway. I'm using RWY 5. Should I be using 23?
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Post by Tom Goodrick on Dec 11, 2008 13:50:31 GMT -5
You land on 23 and takeoff on 5. This is usually done when a runway runs into a mountain. On this runway you won't find much traffic.
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Post by Tom Goodrick on Dec 11, 2008 20:39:26 GMT -5
RATS! I just looked at a photo of the real airport. There are no trees at the ends of the runways. Thus the only way to fly this airport realistically is to turn Autogen completely OFF!
The photos show all kinds of airplanes flying in and out of there with no problem. They do have to land on 23 and take off on 5 as noted above because there is indeed a big mountain just beyond runway 23.
At the north end beyond runway 5 there is a steep drop of about 100 feet and then a shallower down slope continuing to a valley below just as in FS. There are trees beginning about 1200 ft from the end of runway 5 but the drop off reduces the level of their tops making them have no influence on flight into or out of the airport.
So now your C208B should have no problems at all. Just be sure to slow to 70 KIAS on final.
There is one more aspect in which FS9 is not real. The real runway slopes up hill 5 degrees toward the mountain making it easier for all aircraft to stop if they fail to touch just on the number for 23. But that is rather minor. We FS9 pilots just have to be better than the real pilots.
For more info just Google "Courchevel". They give you a list of a dozen options. Pick the airport for a number of articles. I went to one of the photo sites.
And I was just getting used to flying with an Autogen value of 60%. It looks great and is fairly realistic except for those trees at the end of the runway. The people T Microsoft like to put those in to give us a challenge. You get them with the lowest setting of Autogen=20%.
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Post by jerryluke on Dec 12, 2008 11:25:15 GMT -5
Ok, so I've been trying to land on the wrong end! I'll try runway 23 this weekend, following your suggestions. Thanks, Tom!
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Post by Tom Goodrick on Dec 12, 2008 11:33:48 GMT -5
Yesterday I returned to Courchevel and turned off Autogen. I made a takeoff and landing in the Aero Commander 560 and the Cessna Turbo 182. The AC560 landed at 73.95 KIAS and -376 fpm. The Cessna T 182 landed at 71.71 KIAS and -331 fpm, a bit faster than I am used to in the 182. The short runway means you do have to get down smartly with no foat. Both planes stopped on the runway.
Without trees there is not much challenge.
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Post by hanspetter on Dec 15, 2008 21:25:09 GMT -5
A couple of thoughts: A sloped runway as Courchevel isn't really supported in FS9. I remember I downloaded an addon for Courchevel a long time ago. I believe that it enables us to land on flattened... eh, smoothened terrain rather than a proper FS9 runway. This may or may not work totally correct.
Autogen trees pop up randomly. Whenever we're being obstructed by trees during a final it's safe to assume that they're not there in the real world. If you invest time and money to build and maintain an airport the least you can do is to chop down "nuisance trees". Here's a thought, airport definitions seem to kill autogen. FS does not grow autogen trees on airport overlays or ortho-photo scenery. Thus, an expanded airport definition or a photo scenery to enhance Courchevel should keep the trees away.
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Post by Tom Goodrick on Dec 16, 2008 10:50:30 GMT -5
The word "randomly" deserves some clarification. The code uses a pseudo-random sequence based on a key value related to the scenery block. Thus every time you select the same scenery block to fly over, you get the same distribution of trees and other autogen objects. If it were truly random, when you left an airport and returned to it, you would see the trees in different places. But they are always in the same places. This lends a sense of "pseudo-realism!"
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