YES There IS ICING in FS9

[Chris Ross]

I Don't know why but I find it vaguely amusing to see two grown men fighting with a couple of ampersands

[Allan_Lowson]

You'd think the ampersands would know they picked the wrong opponents.

T'interweb 0 TG 1

[Tom Goodrick]

Indeed, the matter deserves some levity. Thanks, guys!

I thought up the logic that will enable an ICE GAUGE that works with any aircraft and payload.

When the aircraft is "on ground", set LBAS = Weight - Fuel (both in pounds). Then display at all times (as "ICE lbs"):

weight - fuel - LBAS

LBAS is the basic weight (with payload but without fuel). When flying, the reduced fuel amount is in the weight. Any ice accumulated will show in the weight so after the subtractions the only remaining amount is ice.

K.I.S.S.

I'll have a gauge working today some time.

[Tom Goodrick]

Why did I say I'd have the gauge in a day? I started it yesterday and had a problem and I still have problems. I'll let you guys look at the code to see what you think. This code display is subject to the same problems at noted in the other code, above.

<Gauge Name="ICE Gauge" Version="1.0">
<Image Name="Box.bmp" ImageSizes="64,48"/>
<Element>
<Visible>(A:Circuit general panel on, bool)</Visible>
<Visible>(G:Var2) 0 == (A:Avionics master switch, bool) &&</Visible>
<Element>
<Value>((A:TOTAL WEIGHT, pounds) (A:TOTAL FUEL QUANTITY WEIGHT, pounds) - ) (>L:FBASE, pounds)</Value>
<Select>
<Value>(A:SIM ON GROUND, number) 0 > if{ (L:FBASE, pounds) (>L:GBASE, pounds) }</Value>
</Select>
<Position X="14" Y="11" />
<Text X="48" Y="14" Bright="Yes" Length="6" Font="Arial" Color="#00FFFF" Adjust="Center" VerticalAdjust="Center" Multiline="No" Fixed="No">
<String>%((L:FBASE, pounds) (L:GBASE, pounds) - )%!5.2f!</String>
</Text>
</Element>

<Element>
<Position X="11" Y="32" />
<Text X="50" Y="12" Bright="Yes" Length="8" Font="Arial Bold" Color="#114444" Adjust="Left" VerticalAdjust="center" Multiline="No">
<String>ICE lbs</String>
</Text>
</Element>
</Element>
<Mouse>
<Tooltip>Ice Gauge</Tooltip>
</Mouse>
</Gauge>


The logic is similar to what I used in the Landing Gauge. We need to detect being on the ground. Here I used the Sim ON GROUND parameter which is 0 when flying and 1 when on the ground. (I tested this and verified it works.) I tried testing 1 == and 0 > and saw no difference.

The probelm seems to be that I cannot find any non zero values with either L:FBASE or L:GBASE.

FBASE is a local variable I define here equalt to the total weight minus the total fuel weight. (I verified these parameters are properly read.) when on the ground, we set the local variable L:GBASE equalt to L:FBASE. Then when flying any ice accumulation should be shown as FBASE - GBASE. Of course the bass ackward arithmetic computations do not make it easy to see these are done correctly. But displaying only FBASE shows a zero. So even that simple direct calculation is not being made correctly.

my way of de-bugging a code like this is to modify the code to display all parameters in question. The A varaiables are all properly read but the values are not inserted into the L variables. I do the same sort of thing in the landing speed gauge and it works. I set two local variables. The speed values read after landing are those stored in the local variables.

I've been doing a lot of head-banging over this. The problem could be as simple as a space in the wrong place. Or a missing space.

[Allen Peterson]

I'm still figuring out how the code works, but I did notice one thing. Your A variable TOTAL FUEL QUANTITY WEIGHT is listed as FUEL TOTAL QUANTITY WEIGHT in my Parameters listing. Don't know if it makes a difference or not.

[Chris Ross]

This may or may not help
My XML editor in FS panel says there is an error in the select element lines that won't let it edit the gauge
Icopied the abovie into a txt copy of your landing gauge comparing the lines as I went
The editor allowed me to open the landing gauge but not the icing gauge

[Tom Goodrick]

Thanks guys. Those two comments will probably make the difference. I probably wrote the wrong name for the total fuel weight because I was so ticked off at those idiots at M$ for the "Quantity weight" when "WEIGHT" would do, that I didn't notice I was screwing up the front end of the name. of course I have cut and pasted the same name all over.

This gauge has gone through many revisions and one was to simplify and revise the Elements. I started with an exact copy of the elements in the landing gauge but the last revision probably did something wrong.

I don't have a very good feeling for the syntax of XML. There seems to be very little logic to it. It was probably designed by a very diverse committee. Of all the computer languages I have learned, it is the worst by far.

BTW recently I tested this gauge on a Rockwell Shrike in the Aurora icing situation. I found the weight was going up significantly when flying in the icing. I though it would be barely noticed in a plane with such high fuel consumption. But the fuel weight decreases by 3.4 lbs per minute and the ice weight increases by as much as 1/2 lb per second. This gauge can be useful.

[Tom Goodrick]

Well, those things helped, especially the parameters name. I think the Element configuration is important too.

Here is what the code has evolved to now:

<Gauge Name="ICE Gauge" Version="1.0">
<Image Name="Box.bmp" ImageSizes="64,48"/>
<Element>
<Position X="14" Y="11" />
<Visible>(A:Circuit general panel on, bool)</Visible>
<Visible>(G:Var2) 0 == (A:Avionics master switch, bool) &&</Visible>
<Value>((A:TOTAL WEIGHT, pounds) (A:FUEL TOTAL QUANTITY WEIGHT, pounds) - ) (>L:FBASE, pounds)</Value>
<Select>
<Value>(A:SIM ON GROUND, number) 0 > if{ (L:FBASE, pounds) (>L:GBASE, pounds) }</Value>
</Select>

<Element>

<Text X="48" Y="14" Bright="Yes" Length="6" Font="Arial" Color="#00FFFF" Adjust="Center" VerticalAdjust="Center" Multiline="No" Fixed="No">
<String>%((L:FBASE, pounds) (L:GBASE, pounds) - )%!5.2f!</String>
</Text>
</Element>
</Element>

<Element>
<Position X="11" Y="32" />
<Element>
<Text X="50" Y="12" Bright="Yes" Length="8" Font="Arial Bold" Color="#114444" Adjust="Left" VerticalAdjust="center" Multiline="No">
<String>ICE lbs</String>
</Text>
</Element>
</Element>
<Mouse>
<Tooltip>Ice Gauge</Tooltip>
</Mouse>
</Gauge>


I verified that the fuel total quantity weight does read in correctly. But I cannot get FBAS to display with a correct value and the final result for ICE displays only a zero. If FBASE is not calculated properly, that explains why ICE shows as zeros. Again, while checking this, I flew the Shrike on an extended downwind leg at 3,000 ft and picked up 16 lbs of ice.

[Chris Ross]

Hmmm I have done something wrong
I copied the above into a txt file changed it to an xml file loaded the situation files and went flying in my gaar dh mosquito I should qualify this by saying I placed the amb c gauge total wt gauge and the icing gauge together They all appear in the cockpit
Teh speedo stops working The fs time gauge stops working but the icing gauge isn't doing anything
interestingly the digital TAS gauge works but the digital IAS stops
It's -10.7 C at 6000'

[Tom Goodrick]

This code works:

<Gauge Name="Ice Gauge" Version="1.0">
<Image Name="Box.bmp" ImageSizes="64,48"/>
<Element>
<Position X="14" Y="11" />
<Visible>(A:Circuit general panel on, bool)</Visible>
<Visible>(G:Var2) 0 == (A:Avionics master switch, bool) &&</Visible>
<Select>
<Value>
(A:SIM ON GROUND, bool) if{ (A:TOTAL WEIGHT, pounds) (A:FUEL TOTAL QUANTITY WEIGHT, pounds) - (>L:LGBASE, pounds) }
</Value>
</Select>
<Element>
<Text X="40" Y="14" Bright="Yes" Length="5" Font="Arial" Color="#00FFFF" Adjust="Center" VerticalAdjust="Center" Multiline="No" Fixed="No">
<String>%((A:TOTAL WEIGHT, pounds) (A:FUEL TOTAL QUANTITY WEIGHT, pounds) - (L:LGBASE, pounds) -)%!5.2f!</String>
</Text>
</Element>
</Element>
<Element>
<Position X="11" Y="32" />
<Element>
<Text X="50" Y="12" Bright="Yes" Length="8" Font="Arial Bold" Color="#114444" Adjust="Left" VerticalAdjust="center" Multiline="No">
<String>Ice Lbs</String>
</Text>
</Element>
</Element>
<Mouse>
<Tooltip>Percent Power</Tooltip>
</Mouse>
</Gauge>

Unfortunately we lose the formatting of left side spaces but if you can type this in, it should work.

I re-wrote this code from scratch starting first with a power gauge (using the box) and then copying the format exactly from the Landing gauge.

I put the gauge in the Shrike and took off from KARR heading east, turning north as I climbed and then west at 3000 ft.

As it should the Ice Gauge showed only zero from engine start through taxi and up to takeoff. During takeoff I was a litle busy keeping it level and climbing moderately as I set up the autopilot. I glanced at the weight gauge during takeoff and then noticed after the autopilot was fixed that the weight had increased a pound. The Ice gauge came a live showing decimal numbers and then we gained pounds pretty quickly. After 2,52 minutes on the Flight Time gauge, the Ice gauge showed 27.23 lbs.

Some of the other codes might have worked and I just did not wait long enough to see an indication. It took at least 45 seconds after starting the takeoff. BTW I had turned on pitot heat so I did not lose airspeed. All gauges were working properly.

I just found out there is one small problem. If you stop a flight in the air and then try to resume it later (As I did to write the above note), you will find the gauge giving a big number. This number would be the total minus the fuel weights except that the gauge does not allow that many digits. The problem is that the variable LGBASE is set to zero when we resume the flight. To work right the gauge must be started with the plane on the ground. A similar problem would happen if you switched aircraft in mid flight.

[Tom Goodrick]

I made a complete flight in the Rockwell Shrike from Aurora IL to Rochester MN using the icing weather as "Global." During the climb to 10,000 ft I picked up 117 lbs in 12 minutes. Once at cruise with 117 lbs it took a while for the ice weight to diminish. I didn't check to see how long as I was doing other things. It took two hours with adverse winds (easterly at low altitude and northwesterly at cruise atitude, with speeds of 50 knots. The ice was gone by the time i started down. But by the time I levelled at 4000 ft, there were 100 lbs of ice. By the time I got close to the ILS, the ice was 162 lbs. Just before touchdown - or impact on the mains - the ice was close to 200 lbs. It snaps to zero when the mains touch. The airplane was baerly flying on final. The etrim was up near 18 degrees when i took it off autopilot as I merged with the ILS. I added nearly full power but did not change the trim. Lateral control became tough as I got over the runway with a 7 knot crosswind. I did not think to set the landing gauge. The rate was near max but no crash was indicated.

The ice gauge works well.

[Tom Goodrick]

I tried the gauge in a DC-3 and managed to crash it into a house because I let too much ice accumulate before deciding to return to the Aurora airport (KARR). I tried to get the DC-3 over 9,000 ft so I couls make a normal cross-country flight. But at 7000 ft I had 680 lbs of ice (in 18 minutes) and could no longer climb. While trying to return to Aurora, I picked up more ice to a total of about 1,120 lbs. I made it onto the ILS but could not maintain the glideslope and mushed into a house about a mile short of runway 9.

[Chris Ross]

Iput the gauge Combo(total wt,ambC&ice)) into my GAAR PBY Catalina in FSX and after an initial problem (hoisted on my own ampersands) it worked fine
Once the temp had fallen below10*C the ice gauge started working

[Tom Goodrick]

I have flown two more aircraft from KARR to KRST climbing through ice and then descending through ice. Both were successful.

The King Air 350 had no trouble with the ice. It climbed quickly up through the ice accumulating only 90 lbs in the 3.5 minutes when it was exposed. Coming down I did a poor job of speed/altitude management trying to reduce ice exposure. I think the ice build up was only about 90 lbs. I was too busy to watch. I cruised at 20,000 ft where the air was fairly smooth. Then I descended to 10,000 ft just west of KRST and but a little too high to dive into the ILS. But that was what I tried to do. I slowed at 8,000 ft to drop flaps and gear. Then I maneuvered to the ILS. I was using the rectangles and could not have done this without that guide. I saw the rectangles low and to my left and steeply descended into them. I arrived over the top of the last recangle lined up with the runway but at 145 KIAS. I landed halfway down the runway but smoothly and all was well.

The Citation II also made the trip with no problems. It picked up only 55 lbs of ice on climb with 5.2 minutes of exposure. Like the 350 I flew past KRST at 10,000 ft and dived back around into the ILS. But the spoilers, flaps and gear kept the speed low. The ILS went smoothly.

The people who did the rectangles in FS9 were very stupid. That was forgivable 10 years ago when nobody had hands-on experience with this method but now you can get it in a Skylane for Pete's sake. The rectangles should be seen only on a glass panel in front of the pilot, looking as though they are outside the aircraft but actually being only projections on the glass. But in FS9 you can look out a side or diagonal window and see them! But their brightness is diminished by the snow!!! And, if you view the landing from a tower view, you'll see the red rectangles with a ghostly airplane flying through them. Dumb-Dee-Dumb-Dumb.

[Tom Goodrick]

No one else is adding to this thread so I will. I set up a layer of icing in clouds between 4500 ft and 8000 ft (global but intended for the southeast area of US). Below the clouds there is poor visibility in light rain but no ice. I took off in a Cessna 340, climbed through the overcast and headed for Chatanooga. I picked up 38 lbs of ice and then started shedding it gradually. But the rate at which you shed ice by evaporation when above clouds in colder air is low. So if you make another approach soon, you will start the approach with some of the ice you accumulated in the climb.

This can be troublesome.